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Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

A place to share your rules-lite RPG ideas and designs.


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quaffeine
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Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by quaffeine »

Does anyone have a favorite magic system from other games that either uses flexible spells (i.e. set effects you can dial up or down as needed) or is completely freeform?

I want to offer an alternative to the typical Vancian-style "spells," whether they run off of spell slots or HP (as in Purest Essence), and I'm not completely satisfied with the options included in the Compendium like Four by Five.

Two things I'd love to see are:

  • Flexible spells that "grow," like in Final Fantasy (video game and its TTRPG) where you get "Fire 1" initially, and can then later learn "Fire 2" and "Fire 3."
  • A mechanic that makes "maxing out" more risky. For example, in D&D a 5th Level mage can cast Fireball once (by spell slot), but using something like spell points or HP they could become an arcane howitzer. I'd still like to allow this, but make the risk increase as you try to do so.

Any suggestions are appreciated, thanks!

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Re: Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by quaffeine »

So here's a couple of interesting ones I came across, notably (but perhaps not surprisingly) both from Black Hack hacks:

1) Usage die

Magic gets a usage die from d12 all the way down to zero and beyond (more on this in a moment). Roll the usage die for each level of the spell cast. Casting beyond a d4 depletion is possible, but there's an increasingly good chance something "very bad" will happen if you risk it. (No Class Hack by Red Kobold Games/Kevin Chenevert, p.24).

2) Flexible spells/spell failure

Lists 43 "generaized" spells that can be cast at "levels of power" ranging from 1 to 5, PCs can cast at up to their Level/2. Cast as much as you want, but each time risks casting attribute (INT/WIS/CHA) damage. (The Knaack Hack by Nathan Knaack, p.18).

Curious if anyone has used systems like this, I kind of like the usage die limitation (cast as much as you want seems OP to me), although the combination of flexible spells and their power levels as a cost in Mana Points also appeals to me.

I will continue the search!

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Re: Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by squirewaldo »

I do rather like the idea of failure in addition to cost.

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Re: Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by squirewaldo »

Also, you may have noticed how I added 'Ritual' as a magical option in Ancient Elements RPG. I particularly dislike the D&D Vancian magic system. It makes no sense at all. Why would you memorize a spell in the morning and then forget it after you use it? I know there is some twisted logic but I cannot think of I single example of such magic being used in traditional societies... probably because they were far too practical to even consider such nonsense.

In traditional societies most magic was based upon ritual. Another big source of magic is the idea of sympathetic magic... thinking so long and hard on something that you make it happen -- with a big Venn Diagram common area for both I suppose. The next big source of magic is offering magic -- making an offer of a cigar, a bit of run, a candle, your first born, etc. to some powerful deity that might respond positively.

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Re: Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by quaffeine »

I did, and I like it as an option to use outside of "encounters" (i.e. combat or other things tracked in rounds). Maybe as an option for Advantage/automatic success if some sort of roll is required, or something that would prevent whatever cost might otherwise be needed.

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Re: Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by squirewaldo »

Have you ever read the Bartimaeus novels? In those books all magic comes from demons. Wizards/Magicians learn how to lure and trap these demons from alternative dimensions and enslave them here. Needless to say the demons do not come voluntarily and take any opportunity they given to destroy their enslaving masters. The tale of Bartimaeus is about a demon who was called by a young somewhat less evil magician. They become friends of sorts, and Bartimaeus does not destroy the young magician when he has the chance.

In this world all magical items are created by embedding an enslaved demon into it in a particularly cruel and horrible manner.

I have thought often about how to create such a magical system, and make it interesting to play.

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Re: Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by quaffeine »

Also some interesting ideas in this supplement for Warrior, Roge & Mage. Still a bit too many spells for my taste, but I like the table that details the progression of magic's effects depending on how much "mustard" the caster puts on it.

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Re: Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by randalls »

squirewaldo wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:19 pm

In this world all magical items are created by embedding an enslaved demon into it in a particularly cruel and horrible manner.

I have thought often about how to create such a magical system, and make it interesting to play.

This is somewhat similar to the magic system in Chaosium's first Elric game (Stormbringer published in 1981, I think). A similar system (converted to a D20-like set of rules) is found in the Crimson Blades RPG. The later is mostly open game content under the OGL as I recall.

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Re: Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by quaffeine »

squirewaldo wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:19 pm

Have you ever read the Bartimaeus novels? In those books all magic comes from demons.

I haven't, but I shall add it to my reading list.

randalls wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:38 am

This is somewhat similar to the magic system in Chaosium's first Elric game (Stormbringer published in 1981, I think). A similar system (converted to a D20-like set of rules) is found in the Crimson Blades RPG. The later is mostly open game content under the OGL as I recall.

Interesting, I'd love to see the rules on those... I can't seem to find any OGL documents for it, do you happen to have a link?

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Re: Flexible magic/spell systems (for m20 variant)

Post by quaffeine »

OK, so I came up with the below as an option for something relatively free-form, which can easily use existing spells, but doesn't require the same bookkeeping in terms of which spells are prepared. It's still a draft, so there are sure to be questions that aren't answered, but I wanted to get some feedback on the concept as a whole.

A couple of design notes:

  • I used the traditional D&D magic schools as the basis for no better reason than eight feels like about the right number to me, and I've always kinda liked them.
  • I modeled the concept of Patterns after "Feats" (as I believe they were called) in the old FASERIP Marvel game... if you wanted to do something fantastical, like a shield trick-shot by Captain America, you had to spend some Karma. But once you did it once, you could do it again cost-free in the future. If these are too much bookkeeping for you though, I feel like they could easily be dropped.
  • I added the limit on upper Intensity to avoid e.g. the 5th LVL mage doubling up on Fireball. Yes, I understand this is a gamble, and that he'd essentially be useless aside from those two big swings, and you could argue it's for the player to worry about that balance. But a mounting level of risk in this regard feels right to me.
  • There are references to things in here that I haven't included/thought out yet, Arcane Failure (you could probably find this a number of places) and the caster's DC among them. But you can probably infer what I'm driving at with these.
  • The biggest of these, and where I was hoping for some suggestions, is how to adjudicate. In other words, the player states what she wants to do... how to fairly and uniformly calculate the required Intensity for it? m20's 4x5 system has such a formula I believe, but I'm curious if anyone else has experience with, or suggestions of, others.
  • I stylized the word "Magick" in the H1, but not elsewhere, on purpose. FYI.

Anyway, enough blabbing, here it is...

Systems of Magick: Magery

The practice of magery is learning, then applying in different ways, a number of basic magical forces. In this system, there are eight spells, corresponding to the traditional schools of arcane magic:

  • Abjure: Protect/defend one's self or others. Negate existing, harmful effects.
  • Charm: Affect the mind/demeanor of others.
  • Conjure: Create (or cause to appear) and banish (or cause to disappear) both inanimate and animate things.
  • Divine: Extend one's senses.
  • Enchant: To invest a thing, either inanimate or animate, with enhancements.
  • Illude: To create illusions affecting one or more senses.
  • Invoke: To gather and direct energies.
  • Transmute: To modify or affect the composition of both inanimate and animate things.

Patterns

Each spell can be used in a variety of patterns. Free-form magic, as it is presented here, is based on the idea that magic can theoretically do anything, but that the user must bend the magical forces to her will. For example, Abjure can be used to wrap a caster's ally in protective magic, or to remove the effects of a sinister curse. Learning to do so involves some risk, but once the pattern is familiar, the caster is free to case it with more intensity (as described in Levels of Intensity).

Patterns should be limited in scope. When caster attempts to use a pattern for the first time, he must make a Magic Check against the same DC the intended pattern would require of a target to see if he can master it. Once done successfully, the mage can use the same pattern at will in the future. If the check fails, consult the Arcane Failure table.

However, the Level of Intensity is not an intrinsic part of the application's scope. For example, a caster could elect to use Quest below, but at only Level 3 intensity. This might place limitations

Examples of applications for each spell are as follows:

  • "Armor" (Abjure): Provide a single target(s) with a bonus to AC against all attacks, or better protection against a particular type of attack. Increasing level of intensity can improve the bonus or affect more targets.
  • "Quest" (Charm): Compel target(s) to complete a stated objective. Failing to do so can result in physical damage or other negative effects. Increasing level of intensity can increase the length of the obligation, place stipulations on how it is performed, or affect more targets.
  • "Summon" (Conjure): Cause to appear one or more creatures. Increasing level of intensity can cause more, or more powerful, creatures to appear.
  • "Farsight" (Divine): Allows the caster to see locations without direct line of sight. Increasing level of intensity can increase the distance, or impart the sight to other targets.
  • "Edge" (Enchant): Invests an edged weapon with a bonus to hit, damage, both, or other special properties. Increasing level of intensity can make the wielder harder to detect, increase the number of times it can be used, or the duration for which it can be used.
  • "Phantom" (Illude): Produces a shadowy silhouette. Increasing level of intensity can increase the phantoms details, add additional effects (e.g. sound), or even imbue it with semi-corporeality.
  • "Spark" (Invoke): Produces a spark of electrical energy, to be applied to a target. Increasing level of intensity can increase the damage, affect more targets, or increase the range of the attack.
  • "Beast" (Transmute): Changes the target's hands into a beast's claws. Increasing level of intensity can increase the damage they cause, increase the duration of the effect, or provide the target with other attributes.

Levels of Intensity

Each of the above spells can be cast at varying levels of intensity, up to a maximum of half the user's LVL. Raising this level will either increase the effect on smaller number of targets (most often a single target), or allow the same effect to be applied to a larger number of targets. For example, Invoking fire with an Intensity of 1 will produce a small globe or bolt of flame that can affect one target. The same application at a level 3 produces a gout or explosion of flame that can affect multiple enemies at once. The intensity of a PC's desired effect is up to the GM to adjudicate.

[NEED HELP HERE WITH GUIDELINES/FORMULA ON HOW TO ADJUDICATE INTENSITY]

Magic-users fuel their spells with Mana Points. To determine the Mana Points for an arcane caster, simply total all of the spell levels available when using the traditional Vancian system. Each level of Intensity requires a Mana Point, and the caster is free to apply any Intensity of up to her LVL/2 to a spell, with one exception.

As the highest level of intensity is the one most recently learned, using it carries a degree of risk. Casters may invest a spell with their maximum Intensity once per long rest without consequence. A subsequent attempt requires a successful KNW check against their own spellcasting DC, with failure producing a result from the Arcane Failure table. Each further attempt adds a -2 penalty to the check.

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