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I like these ideas. It is not necessarily a 'simpler' mechanism than the Vancian system of D&D (which I detest on multiple levels) so much as 'logical'. It makes sense. If I am going to have to learn something I would like it to be logical.

The process of 'learning' a spell is also an interesting concept, perhaps even on the fly. If you can imagine it you can do it... maybe. Once you master it you can use it again. At least that is what I understood.

The issue of intensity seems to be an area where there could be some complexity, but that may not really turn out to be so complex.

Let me read this again tomorrow... without brandy. I will see if my brain functions better. Unlikely but I remain hopeful.

1 negative... but I will have to think more on this. The 8 basic schools you based the magic on don't seem to make much sense. It may be better than nothing, but is it? Or perhaps a different collection of schools? Some make more sense than the others.

squirewaldo wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:04 pm

I like these ideas. It is not necessarily a 'simpler' mechanism than the Vancian system of D&D (which I detest on multiple levels) so much as 'logical'. It makes sense. If I am going to have to learn something I would like it to be logical.

While it's certainly not as easy as basically "do whatever you want," which is what I understand some more free-form systems to be, I feel like it strikes a good balance between that freedom and bookkeeping: the only things you really need to keep track of are 1) patterns you've used in the past, 2) your max Intensity, 3) which spells you know, and 4) your Mana Points. Worth noting here that in the Mage class I was planning on initially granting access to 1, 2, maybe 3 spells, with others becoming available at higher levels.

squirewaldo wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:04 pm

The process of 'learning' a spell is also an interesting concept, perhaps even on the fly. If you can imagine it you can do it... maybe. Once you master it you can use it again. At least that is what I understood.

Yes, the intent here is definitely for casters to be able to do this on the fly, that's how it was in the Marvel game as well. Adds a bit of the spontaneity I was looking for.

squirewaldo wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:04 pm

The issue of intensity seems to be an area where there could be some complexity, but that may not really turn out to be so complex.

Also agree, this is where I was hoping someone could suggest some straightforward formula... plug in a few numbers based on the effect you want, and get your required Intensity. Along the lines of the m20 4x5 system, which does a good job in that regard I think. I haven't figured out a way to do an easy conversion of that unfortunately, although maybe I'll have to take another pass at it.

squirewaldo wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:07 pm

1 negative... but I will have to think more on this. The 8 basic schools you based the magic on don't seem to make much sense. It may be better than nothing, but is it? Or perhaps a different collection of schools? Some make more sense than the others.

Yes, you could certainly argue that the traditional D&D arcane schools were arbitrary. I think they make sense in their own way, but maybe that's just because I've been used to giving them due consideration since 2E.

I went with them for a couple of reasons, but the main one is compatibility with all the spells already out there. For example, you could see a neat spell in an old issue of Dragon, state that as your desired effect, and you already know whether you can cast it as-is based on your max Intensity and the spells you know. Even better, suppose you know the spell but can't put enough Intensity behind it. Rather than just saying "sorry, you can't," you can just dial the effect back some and still pull it off. Provided you make your DC check, of course.

That said, I did neglect to put Necromancy back in there, the last of the traditional schools from D&D. In a campaign I'm working on necromancy is something special, but for this ruleset I'm working on now I should err more on the side of generally compatible.

Perhaps I just don't understand the Magic Schools. Are they really different schools or more like styles? I am thinking, is this like different martial arts 'schools' which all have certain concept in common while having uniquely different aspects as well? Or are they really different and How?

One thing that never made sense to me was the difference between arcane magic and divine magic. How much of that difference is a matter of choice by the magician, or a matter of how the magic works at the core?

I recall a book series called the 'Prince of Nothing' I rather enjoyed some time ago. As I recall there were different schools of magic, but the primary difference was direct-magic vs representative-magic. In the direct school the magician could create a fireball, but in the representative school the magician had to create or call upon a source of magic and then have that source create the fireball -- like calling upon a dragon and then having the dragon breath fire. The most power magicians were from the direct school, but they were also the minority since it took a lot longer to develop the magical strength and skills to do direct magic. There was also a techno-magic that was developed by aliens who crash landed their spaceship on the planet and as repairing the ship was impossible decided to settle down and try to conquer the planet with their evil combination of high tech and direct magic -- sort of like Morgoth with sophisticated laboratories.

Also, there needs to be necromancy if not a separate school. How can you have evil magicians without necromancy of some sort?

I think my real problem with these 'Schools of Magic' is that I just cannot wrap my brain around how it works. I like the 4x5 system because I understand not only what happens but how it works, even if I have not been able to implement to my satisfaction.

Example: healing someone of cancer. 1. Use the bodies own healing powers to defeat the cancer -- Enhance and Body, 2. Attack the cancer itself like magic chemo -- Diminish and Body, 3. Actually remove the cancer (like those healers in the Philippines who magically pull out big lumps of tumor using psychic operations -- Diminish/Control and Body... or perhaps even using spirit or energy to remove the cancer like a substitute scalpel.

Not everyone can do any magic, but if you have the right Verb and Noun you might be able to. I think what I missed, and which could be created was the 'learning' process and the cost of failure.

squirewaldo wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:14 pm

Perhaps I just don't understand the Magic Schools. Are they really different schools or more like styles? I am thinking, is this like different martial arts 'schools' which all have certain concept in common while having uniquely different aspects as well? Or are they really different and How?

I used the word "schools" because that's what they were called in 2E. As presented here, it's really a single spell (or maybe think of it as a "domain") that represents that entire school. And by learning this single spell, you can do (or at least attempt) anything that one of the spells in that 2E school would do... again, provided you can give it the necessary Intensity and make a DC check that first time.

squirewaldo wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:14 pm

One thing that never made sense to me was the difference between arcane magic and divine magic. How much of that difference is a matter of choice by the magician, or a matter of how the magic works at the core?

Yes, I sometimes think of this as well as a fan of novel series like The Wheel of Time (where there are no "priests," only mages/channelers) and Malazan Book of the Fallen (where "mages" and "priests" actually use the same source of magic). In games like D&D/Pathfinder I get the reason why they did it, as a way to inject more flavor, and at times I like the fundamental difference of "I magic because I can bend the universe to my will" and "I magic because my patron gives me the power." It's up to the creator I guess as to whether they want some sort of "universal" source of magic, or to make the distinction between arcane and divine (and/or others).

squirewaldo wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:15 pm

Also, there needs to be necromancy if not a separate school. How can you have evil magicians without necromancy of some sort?

Yep, agree, I've already added that. Although the only proof I have that "Necromance" is an actual valid verb in the English language is Wiktionary.

squirewaldo wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:38 pm

I think my real problem with these 'Schools of Magic' is that I just cannot wrap my brain around how it works. I like the 4x5 system because I understand not only what happens but how it works, even if I have not been able to implement to my satisfaction.

Forget about the word "school." These are nine spells, each of which represents a fundamental magical force for doing one general thing. In fact, each of the spells' names is a verb, so think of it as nine Verbs that are just more limited in scope than "Enhance," "Diminish," et al. Then you learn (through trial and error, where you're basically adding the Noun) to use that spell to do the specific things you want. Again, I decided to go with these to make re-use of existing spells from just about any d20-ish simple, since they already classify spells using these same categories.

squirewaldo wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:38 pm

Example: healing someone of cancer. 1. Use the bodies own healing powers to defeat the cancer -- Enhance and Body, 2. Attack the cancer itself like magic chemo -- Diminish and Body, 3. Actually remove the cancer (like those healers in the Philippines who magically pull out big lumps of tumor using psychic operations -- Diminish/Control and Body... or perhaps even using spirit or energy to remove the cancer like a substitute scalpel.

This actually illustrates something about 4x5 that's not to my taste... if there's ten different ways to accomplish the same thing, what's my incentive to level up in magic use? I don't need to Control/Produce-Energy and make a fireball to damage my foe when I can Diminish-Body to give him cancer (which is also what I used to cure it).

I do understand the appeal of 4x5 and there are things I like about it, but it's just not quite what I'm looking for.

You are probably right about 4x5. I like the idea but I have yet to be able to implement it in a reasonable way.