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Update (19 Jun 23):

As I mentioned many weeks ago, maintaining the seldom used Wordpress side of this site became too much of a bother, especially as parts of Wordpress are constantly updating and some those updates break things -- like access to this forum. I'm finally had time to remove it. The forum should stop disappearing from view now.

As many of you know, my wife has had MS for about 20 years now. It has gotten to the stage where helping her takes a lot more of my time that it used to. This means visits to this board have become few and far between. I'm looking for a couple of members willing to help moderate this board. Note that if your idea of good moderation is anything similar the way boards like RPG.net are moderated, do not bother volunteering. Good moderation isn't about forcing your opinions, ideological positions, or biases on members via your power to gag and ban, it is about being helpful to all members (even those you don't like/disagree with), cleaning up after spammers, and enforcing the rules with the lightest hand possible and only doing so when the rules are actually broken. If you are interested in any message board moderation position on any board because of the supposed "power" it will give you, you are (IMHO) the wrong person for the job. If you are interested, PM me. It may taken quite a while to reply, unfortunately.

WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

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WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by squirewaldo »

I know the OGL 1.0 cannot 'legally' be changed by Hasbro/WotC. But that does not mean they cannot try, and in the process cause a lot of agita for those who have relied upon it in the past. I think that for most OSR projects there is no need to use the OGL. Game rules cannot be protected, only the actual words and images (copyright), trademarks and tradenames, and occasionally patents for really unique processes and game items.

If you avoid using the word for word descriptions as allowed under the OGL 1.0 but which may identify the work as covered by the OGL, images, trademarks and tradenames associated with anything from WotC, and possible process 'tech' like the use of the d20 (although I think that is really stretching it), I really don't think there is any reason to use the OGL unless you just like the idea of notifying them that you are a target to be bullied and harassed.

I think in the future I am going to remove the OGL, convert 1d20 rolls to 2d10s, make a point of not using WotC 'character creation' system (which I already do not use), and go through with a fine tooth comb and remove any references that may be identical to the OGL 1.0. In fact, perhaps we should join together and try to come up with a bullet proof OSR set of rules that provides the feel of, but is completely removed from the OGL 1.0? I think Microlite may be an ideal place to start that process... remove what little there is of the SRD 3.5, rename it, and give credit to the author of Microlite20 and varieties, but that is it. (As I think about it, giving credit to sources of 'inspiration' is a dangerous bit of courtesy that may come back to bite you -- if you are not violating IP law and you are not including the OGL in your document making such polite comments may just open you up for abuse and harassment.)

HERE IS AN INTERESTING POST ON ITCHIO:

SQUIRE WALDO
37 minutes ago
Although the post comes with the caveat, "I'm not a lawyer..." I believe his explanation is quite accurate. There is also a very interesting comment by 'Cone of Negative Energy' that points out the negative aspect of using the OGL... you are contractually agreeing to abide by terms that would otherwise not be covered under various aspects of intellectual property (IP) law.

https://itch.io/t/420581/publishing-wit ... gl-and-you

If you know the answer I would appreciate you explaining it to me:

If I rely upon parts of Microlite20 or Microlite2020 that uses the OGL 1., but the part that I use from Microlite20 has nothing to do with the SRD 3.5 or anything else from WotC, is that non-WotC content now 'given' to WotC by including the OGL 1.?

I suppose I just just sit down and study the damn thing for myself, but sometimes it is nice to get guidance from more knowledgeable people.

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Re: WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by squirewaldo »

This is my primary concern. Under normal copyright law you can use copyrighted material under certain circumstances related to 'fair use'. Under 'fair use' doctrine it must not be word for word copy unless it is very limited, like a quotation, and then must have proper citation and attribution. So if I was making a dungeon crawl game that was compatible with D&D but not an actual copy there would be no problem stating that it was D&D compatible as long as I provided citation and attribution to WotC acknowledging their copyright, tradename, trademark, etc. Under the OGL 1.0a I can actually use the SRD 3.5 word for word, but I CANNOT provide citation or attribution back to WotC other than through the OGL itself which prohibits me from even mentioning the product identification.

Now I don't make anything that is directly derivative from the SRD 3.5 other than a few components (monsters and stat system which I state are from the SRD 3.5), but I do use Microlite20 and Microlite2020 components that are also not derivative of the SRD 3.5. However, some parts of Microlite are derivative, but I don't use those parts, only the parts that are unique to Microlite. So I need to include the OGL for those limited parts that are derivative from SRD 3.5, but what do I do with the Microlite portions that I am using that are not derivative of the OGL or SRD 3.5? Under standard copyright law all I would have to do is provide a brief description of what I am using and attribution for Microlite. Or does Microlite fall under the OGL because they used the OGL themselves??? A real nightmare.

I think I can rely upon the OGL 1.0a for past efforts since at the time it was clearly an authorized license. But if I want to create something new in the future that uses nothing from the SRD 3.5, but does use some components from Microlite????? Ahhhhhhhh.

Sorry, I am rambling and sort of 'thinking out loud', but I do appreciate your feedback or at least patience!

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Re: WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by squirewaldo »

I believe I have an answer to my question.

Under the OGL 1.0, if I choose to use it, I have the right to use the Open Source Content material (the SRDs) word for word if I want to. What I give up in exchange for this right, creating what is an enforceable contract IMHO because that means there is consideration (or a mutual exchange of value of some sort), is giving WotC more IP property rights over the branding, name, non-Open Source Content, etc. than it would otherwise have received under standard copyright law and other IP laws. Also, by including the OGL 1.0 in my work I voluntarily make my work, which may contain unique and potentially protected material not derived from the SRD part of the a chain of Open Source Content that always leads back to WotC. So those elements of Microlite that are NOT derivative from the WotC Open Source Content are all the same now Open Source Content covered under the OGL 1.0.

That is some powerful consideration in favor of WotC and IMHO makes the OGL 1.0 and 1.0a an enforceable contract that cannot be unilaterally amended, revoked, or 'unauthorized' by WotC. All the same that is just my opinion. I think I will wait until a court issues a more binding opinion in my favor, preferably without me being a part of the proceedings, before I continue using the OGL 1.0 or 1.0a.

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Re: WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by quaffeine »

High level question, I think I know the answer, but in a nutshell:

If you write all your content from scratch, as I do, then even if you're describing key terms/processes (like creating a character and applying experience, as described in the Hypertext d20 SRD's FAQ), then your work doesn't even need to use the OGL if you don't want it to, as you haven't used any verbatim Open Game Content. My expectation would be that you might need to change some terms if it comes to it (Hit Points -> Health, Armor Class -> Defense Rating) if those somehow get declared as Product Identity. But it seems absurd that anyone could claim something as basic as "roll a d20, where more than X is a success" as proprietary.

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Re: WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by gjbkk »

Will this alleged upcoming licence change affect Microlite in any way?

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Re: WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by quaffeine »

So the usual "I am not a lawyer" applies... in fact, I rarely know what I'm talking about most of the time in general. But what I've gathered from all the web articles, forum posts, and YouTube videos I've watched on this to date (which is not all that much TBH), the answer is... definitely maybe. :lol:

But seriously, two main things could occur to impact m20 in a material way:

  1. WotC could try to assert ownership over key gaming terms or, more importantly, mechanics. As I mention above, from some things I've heard the new license may term "processes" like "roll a 20-sided die" as Product Identity somehow. Again, I haven't read the current license in great detail, but it does make reference to disallowing "processes" like describing how to create a character or how to apply experience to a character. I think this was their way of allowing 3PP to create content while requiring everyone needed the core books to use them.
  2. It seems WotC is definitely trying to invalidate/revoke/de-authorize/whatever the existing OGL versions 1.0 and 1.0a.

If either of these things occur, then conceivably WotC could send cease and desists to m20 publishers, since IIRC m20 versions going all the way back to the original one from Robin Stacey are based on the 3.x SRD, which is possible of course because it's licensed under the OGL. They could also require/threaten/cajole these publishers to "upgrade" to the new 1.1 version of the license, which brings with it royalties (though I don't think m20 projects meet the $750k threshold that's being discussed for that) as well granting WotC license to use any content created under it forever, for whatever purpose they deem fit. It's this last part that's the most problematic IMO.

Here's hoping that a system that doesn't use OGL-licensed content (Worlds Without Number was mentioned as one, and I believe Chris Gonnerman is looking to excise all OGC from Basic Fantasy). If someone manages to do this and it holds up against whatever steps WotC may take to stop it, m20 could sort of "rebase" itself off one of these systems.

Alternately, publishers could re-write all the rules from scratch, and see if the traditional "you can't copyright an idea, only its presentation" defense holds up. Again, WotC has already taken steps to try to ensure reliance on the core rulebooks. If it's successful in establishing that any derivative work based on concepts/mechanics they're known for, such as "character levels" achieved by "earning XP" or "rolling for attributes," then publishers could start having a hard time avoiding the new OGL unless they want to use very different mechanics created from scratch or can find ones that are licensed in an open way.

I, for one, like the basic mechanics that I've used since B/X and 1E, and if they're not available for free use after all's said and done I will be, to quote Prince Humperdink, "very put out..."

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Re: WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by sycarion »

gjbkk wrote:
Mon Jan 09, 2023 5:13 am

Will this alleged upcoming licence change affect Microlite in any way?

IANAL, this is my understanding.

In short, Microlite was published under a license that Hasbro wants to revoke. They have said that you must change to the new license because the old license will be gone. If it isn't changed to the new license, it is unlicensed content and bad things might happen. To me, that means that IF the new license comes into effect, Microlite20 is out of compliance and bad things may happen like takedown notices or letters from lawyers.

There is an argument that they can't revoke the old license, but its a grey area to me. (That Washington Company uses a more specific legal term than revoke that is escaping me at the moment.)

Some folks like Troll Lord Games are rewriting the rules so that it has no srd content. Some are changing systems (like the Cypher System by Monte Cook) to a different open license. I don't imagine anyone would want to switch systems, so my personal opinion would be there might need to be a review of the original document to remove anything from the d20 SRD in it. This would need to happen in derivative works as well, especially the 5th edition clone.

Not a fan of That Washington Company right now because the OGL made it so easy to create and modify games like Microlite 20. That's my 2 cents.

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Re: WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by gjbkk »

Thanks for the feedback guys. I have zero legal knowledge but I would be surprised if it was legal to order retroactive cease and desist of free products that have been printed legally under licences that existed before a new licence came into effect (?)

My gut feeling is that WOTC may very well scale back their potential licence restrictions amid fears of widespread bad publicity, and that would only be even worse if they tried to take down products like M20.

In a worse case scenario though, it would be interesting to see if Randall revised M20, penned a new game under a different licence or simply decided to let players switch to a new, truly open licence game which is almost certain to spring up in response.

The timing of this is also interesting, I wonder if WOTC are cashing in on continued interest in Stranger Things and nerd culture in general.

EDIT: I just noticed an interesting line from their statement:

"What does this mean for you as a creator? If you’re making share-alike content, very little is going to change from what you’re already used to. "

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Re: WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by quaffeine »

It means very little, as long as you're cool with WotC potentially taking your Sharealike content and selling it, without compensating you as the creator in any way.

As for me, if the Basic Fantasy folks manage to purge SRD content and it holds up, it will be easy enough to write rulesets from scratch that are still familiar. But if WotC manages to assert some sort of rights over key concepts (e.g. 3d6 to roll attributes, d20 vs target number for success, etc.), then there may be a problem in making familiar rulesets. And I really dont want to have to switch to radically different mechanics at my advanced age. :lol:

I did see one interesting thing in the leaked OGL draft, assuming it's legit... that the "Licensed Work" is specifically the 5E SRD. I'm not sure where this leaves the 3.5 SRD on which Microlite is based. Especially after the OGL 1.0/a is de-authorized/revoked/whatever. My assumption is without a valid OGL attached to it, the 3.5 SRD just kind of floats out there, being used by nobody as nobody is permitted to use it. But maybe there's something to be done there...

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Re: WotC, the OGL 1.*, and SRD 3.*

Post by squirewaldo »

quaffeine wrote:
Sun Jan 08, 2023 7:36 pm

High level question, I think I know the answer, but in a nutshell:

If you write all your content from scratch, as I do, then even if you're describing key terms/processes (like creating a character and applying experience, as described in the Hypertext d20 SRD's FAQ), then your work doesn't even need to use the OGL if you don't want it to, as you haven't used any verbatim Open Game Content. My expectation would be that you might need to change some terms if it comes to it (Hit Points -> Health, Armor Class -> Defense Rating) if those somehow get declared as Product Identity. But it seems absurd that anyone could claim something as basic as "roll a d20, where more than X is a success" as proprietary.

You are correct. For most games there is no reason to use the OGL. WotC get a lot more out of it than we do. It was just laziness on my part that I continued to use it when I had no need to do so.

Copyright can only cover words and phrases, music, and images. Not rules, processes, structure, or formulas. Those things 'might' be protected as 'process patents' but even so, those would have expired or become part of the public domain by lack of enforcement. WotC has been spanked in the past trying to claim such things as under copyright; not just losing but having to pay attorney's fees, etc.

I have already converted two ML based games by removing the OGL or changing terms, and I was surprised at how easy it was. I don't think anyone can protect words like strength, dexterity, etc., but just to be safe I changed the 3 to BRAWN, AGILITY and BRAIN. And I changed every other term that could possibly be related by the Open Game Content covered by the OGL. You don't need the OGL to 'copy' the rules, you just cannot copy the words beyond 'fair use'. The real problem is how to treat Microlite20 and Microlite2020 since they are also covered by the OGL, and I am sad to say that they are going to get the same treatment as the SRDs. The OGL made us lazy since we could just cut and paste anything from the SRDs without consideration.

Also, I am not 100% sure that WotC is even trying to retroactively cancel OGL 1.0 so much as making people stop using it. If that is their goal, congrats WotC; I think most game makers, particularly the serious big boys, are going to abandon the OGL, the SRDs and anything remotely related to WotC. I know I will never use the OGL again even if WotC starts crawfishing on this BS.

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